NOTHING Local!

[John]

I am hitting dirt on trying to find local supplyers for anything. My local guy doesn't evn know what a Super-P is and thinks that Pozzolans reduce water. His products seem expensive to start and generally everything they sell is in bult. Anyone need 30 litres of release agent!!!

Alla: maybe you can shed some light on where you buy most of your additives, sealers, pozzolans....etc. Because Ottawa seems to only build side walks!!!!

[Tom Fischer- Fishstone,CCS]

Hey John,

This is why we created www.concretecountertopsupply.com. We may not be local but you can get all your products you need in one shipment. Plus we can offer real world advice as we manufacture countertops at our Fishstone Studio shop.

If you get a chance...take a look and let us know if we can help out.

Tom Fischer
847-515-2232

[John]

I have your brouchure including the sale flyer after my CCI training. I was going through it last night. After I decided not to go the Mixer route I was at the local Princess Auto ( Harbour Freight) and found a hand mixer for 99.00!! Well I guess it doesn't like stiring concrete and started to smoke. I see you have the 10.4v variable on for a good price, so I might buy that along with some other one stop shopping. ( I'd just prefer to get things local, but that just isn't happenin!!!)

[Alla Linetsky]

John, Princess Auto sells nothing but CCC - cheap chinese crap. Go to a serious contractor supplier and get an account there. And be prepared to pay double or triple what CCC goes for.

As for chemicals, there must be local reps from BASF, Grace, Euclid or Axim. Their products are all very similar, it's just a matter of who will return your phone calls. Look them up, call their canadian head offices (usually in GTA) and get the name of the local rep. There is probably a local chapter of the American Concrete Institute or the Ready-Mix Concrete Assoc of Ontario; it's best if you talk to these guys over a drink at a social meeting.

[John]

My Local guy has a Flex mixer with 2 speed 7.4 amp for 500.00!! That is half the machine for double the money out of the states. I know it is all CCC but some times it works for you and some times it doesn't. Also to compare bag mix prices I can buy Quikcrete Countertop her for 40.00 nd at lowes in the US for 11.00!!! I am in Toronto at least once a month. Who do you buy from in the GTA? I try talking to the redy mix guys and they keep sending me to th same " Local Guy".

[Eric J. Anderson]

John,

Don't take this the wrong way ... But it appears that you are looking for something for nothing. The truth is our industry is not a cheap industry to get set up in. Many of the "retailers" and "training" academies give you that impression because it gets you in the door. With that being said I want to say there is value in what they bring to the market place the question really is it a value to you, your business, and how it relates to the product you bring to you customers. But just like anything else you need to "pay to play", or "you get what you pay for".

There is a reason that a cabinet maker has a $4000 table saw, there is a reason that a good mechanic uses Snap-On or MAC tools, and there is a reason that a gourmet chef uses a $500 German honed knife.

This is the point I am trying to make ... "It ain't easy". I had 12 years experience in testing and materials allocation prior to getting into this business and I still spend a few hours on-line during the week and on the phone tracking different products down to try and improve my concrete to keep my competitive edge. I am always upgrading my tools and modifying or casting stations for swifter production and increased efficiency in my shop. There are a lot of good resources out there but my resources in my area more than likely don't want anything to do with another contractor in another part of North America because of the volume and size involved. What works for me in my shop is far different than what will work for you in your shop. It is great to get ideas from places like this but you have to make sure that it works for you. In some regards you need to spend some serious time in your market and find out what is out there that you can utilize locally. None of the chemical companies that Alla mentioned run yellow pages or newspaper advertisement because they are inside sales organizations. You will be lucky to find a phone number and an address in your local phone book because many of them utilize independent sales reps that carry multiple lines of products inside of the construction trades. You have to track them down on-line, start sending e-mails, leaving voice-mails, and beat on their door. Also realize that they are sales people, your most valuable information will come from competent people inside of the company’s tech support (BASF may have one of the best out there). But make sure that they understand that you are not a ready-mix producer the performance we demand from our product aesthetically is far different than a contractor would demand for footings. You have to inform them the “WHY” you need the “WHAT” for that information.

If you went to the CCI training, in the back of the manual there is a very limited list of some places that you can get some of the supplies for your mix. Some people use them but many of us on here do not because we have found other products that are easier to procure, have better performance, or we have just altered our designs to a completely different animal in order to make our concrete do some very unique things. The fact is, you need to decide what you want to offer your customers in terms of a mix design and a finished product, and then you need to decide what you are going to do to get what you need in order to get that done. That part is going to require a lot of research on your part. Start reading concrete manuals from ACI, the PCA (slightly limited and skewed to Portland cement), get some engineering text books like LEA's, or Concrete Chemistry, utilize past topic on this forum or some of the others out there but realize that is just a stepping stone and you still have to do the leg work and test your mix designs for your workability factors and finished product standards.

Again the only point I am trying to make is this, it is not as easy of a job as some make it appear if you really want to get into making "WORRY-FREE" concrete countertops for your customers ... If ithis type of work was that easy everyone would be building concrete countertops and it would be the only choice for home-owners, designers, and architects for their projects; none of them would have ever had a bad experience with bad concrete, bad workmanship, poorly performing sealers … It is up to you to develop your mix design, your style of work, and then set your customers expectations for what your product can do for them.

[jschuler]

John,

I fully agree with Eric. This morning reading your post...I was going to send you a post asking you why you were still trying to use a DIY product when you are trying to be a professional? The Quickcrete product is a major low grade DIY product...expensive...when you are trying to market yourself as a professional? Just from a cost stand point...taking the time...and your time in valuable...driving to pick up a bag mix for 11 dollars...means you are till spending 22+ dollars a cubic foot on a low grade product...when you can spend far less making your own mix from scratch. You just spend high dollars getting basic training from CCI...I know they give you basic mixes...why not follow those to start with?

Now, again please don't take this thr wrong way, none of use are coming down on you. I can tell you this....many many time I spent far more time rubbing 2 pennies together trying to make a dime...when I could have saved a ton of time and cost just getting the propper dime. Don't chase your tail with crappy stuff....market yourself as a pro by being a pro.

Get away from the bagged junk low end products and start your business off right with good quality high end products. You have access to some to most brilliant minds and artisons on this forum alone. Don't degrade yourself by using cheap low budget bag junk...that makes for a low grade product that you will find yourself having to stand behind and possably failing behind.

I am referring to your tools, admixtures...etc. I am sure many of us could tell you stories of the junk I have bought over the many years...that ended up costing me more in the end for not getting quality in the first place. I have a huge bone yard of grinders, admixtures, pigments....that I thought I was saving a few bucks by getting...then they cost me a fortune trying to back track with lost time, bad products...etc.

Get a good start to your business and your success by taking to time to start with quality and a good reputation for quality.

Jon

[John]

My comment on the DIY mix was purley an example of the cost differance between my "Local Guy" and the same product in the US. I am beyond the DIY and this is why I am looking for comparable ingediance prices from other people. Why should I spend 20.00 on a bag of Type I here if I can get it out of Toronto or just across the boarder for 1/2 that price? I need to figure out if my " Local Guy" is yanking my chain. I don't mind buying the right tools for the right price. But I refuse to line a local vendors pockets because he is the "Guy". I am already set up for steel fabrication and I know it takes time but I still want the best bang for my buck. I guess my biggest problem is that I live in Canada. It seems that everything is twice as expensive here. I have been spending all my time researching on the web and trying to talk to my local mix companies. So instead of wasting time I was mearly seeing where other people go. I am building my first casting table this weekend out of steel. I hate re-inventing the wheel so I was hoping to get info from others on what they use for table support, supplyers for material, etc. I am mearly doing my research. I have to start some place like everyone else did at one time.

[Eric J. Anderson]

John,

I think the point that I am (and after reading Jon S. post maybe him also) trying to stress is that what I use may not work for you because of a number of different underlying factors surrounding your local materials. Sand is not just sand, aggregate is not just aggregate, and as for cement they also vary in different parts of the world. Maybe BASF M-FLUX 2614 is the way to go for your materials, but maybe it is BASF M-FLUX 2615, or maybe it is BASF MELEMENT F-10, maybe it is something from GRACE, EUCLID, BRETT, or FRITZ PACK.

Jon is in Northern California, I am in Central Minnesota and our mixes or probably different based on local geology, procurement and use of our local products in addition to what we may each bring into our own shops buy per pallet. That is what you have to weigh out in your design, what is it that works best for you by utilizing the information of what is in your area at your disposal. Relying on what someone else opinion is the sure fire way to do this is setting you up for possible failure or loss of revenue by chasing something that doesn't work in your mix.

My other word of warning is when buying local beware of letting your local supplier or retailer know too much of what it is you do. Example: I had been getting a great liquid NCA product from my local supplier and dosing it at a level that was different than the manufactures recommendations. Now with this being said I had reasons for that and when talking with the manufactures tech support I explained my shop conditions and the other items that I was using in my mix and they thought that I was right on the money with my dosage in relation to what I was using it for, along with my shops curing protocol. About a week later I get a call from a local contractor asking what dosage I was using the NCA at because he had heard at the sales desk of my local supplier that I had real good luck using that product in my countertop process. I just about flipped my lid, because for me it was being used in conjunction with other materials and conditions that helped control the flash of my product, the sales person behind the desk has no idea of the work that I went through to balance out everything in order to get it to work the way "I" needed it to work, he was just looking at making an additional sale to one of his customers. Now I am getting calls from a guy who is looking at utilizing the same product all because I am using it with no knowledge of "WHY" I am using it other than he knows the business I am in and is looking for some "SHOP" work to get him through the winter. His set-up is not my set-up, my set-up is not your set-up, your set-up is not Jon S. set-up, and so on and so on, that is all I am saying here.

A lot is lost in the written word and over phone conversations. I commend you for spending the money to go to CCI, which is a great way to see what a production shop could look like. I think you can get some basic ideas on what can make a decent casting table but you can probably come up with a better idea on how to make it function for yourself in your own shop. I am at the tipping point myself in deciding if we continue to use our system (which works well) or go to a system like Mark C. makes which would cause us to scrap what we have because of room it needs and may require some other tweaking based on how we cure and process our pieces. Again that is something "I" need to wrestle with and even though the forum offers some advice the decision is mine alone. My suggestion would be to see if any other local fabricator would be willing to let you into their shop for a visit or if you can travel to someone else’s shop to see what they do if they are open to it. However, the only people that get into our shop are, current employees, current suppliers, customers whose project are going on and they have paid, and fellow artisans that are in the area to visit us or that we have hired to come in and help on larger projects …

Here is a quote from Canadian Jack Adams who is the person whose merit and teamwork has lead the NHL to attribute the Jack Adams Award yearly to the head coach most deserving "adjudged to have contributed the most to his team's success" (since 1974) ... "If it's free, it's advice ... If you pay for it, it's counseling ... If you can actually use either one, it's a miracle.”

My other favorite is ... "Free advice never costs you anything until you act upon it".

We all have ideas of what makes good concrete, good shop set-ups, and good business practices but we do not know what others have to act upon to make that work for them … All we can offer is free advice.

[John]

I think we are blowing this way out of proportion! All I am looking for was local material at better prices than what I am getting from the one " Local Guy" that every one seems to use in Ottawa. I am trying to see what is available without having to run to the UPS store once a month to get stuff out of the US. But it seems that every time I turn around the price is double. Another example of the difference in price. A starter kit of E3 out of the US is 260.00 odd dollars, the same thing out of Canada is 499.00!!! All I am looking for is contacts of Local suppliers. I am very aware that my crappy gray P-stone will be very different than Jeff's P-stone in NC or aggregate in Utah. Maybe I am asking the wrong questions? Maybe this board isn't the place for me to start, because it seems that I either have to solve my own problems or do my own research. In essence re-inventing the wheel at each turn. I guess I will line the pockets of UPS and Canada Customs then.

[jschuler]

John,

Trust me....we all feel your pain. Sourcing really sucks, we have all been there. It took me months of phone calls and deals just to get some Slag Cement bagged out here. You may find, Delta Performance and Blue Concrete a valuable source. Although they are in US, they could send you a full split pallet with everything from VCAS, Slag Cement, Ultimax....Pigments, Colored sands......admixtures...etc...etc...etc. Fill a pallet to the rim, cut down on your shipping cost of products coming from 10 or so different vendors....one stop shop.

Jon

[Boom Bechkowiak]

I understand what you are going through John.

[Alla Linetsky]

John, here are two GTA building products suppliers that I use:

Blair Building Materials, 10445 Keele St., Maple, ON, 416-798-4996
Bernardi Building Supply, 469 Garyray Dr., Weston, ON, 416-741-0941

There are others, but I like these two the best, and they have the best prices on cement and pigments. White portland costs me around $20/bag after my discount. But these outlets don't sell any serious admixtures; for that you have to contact the reps. Just call up the head offices and find out who the reps are for your area. We all had to do it; nobody handed us a list of names. Now that you know what you're asking for, you'll find it easier to get through to these people.

I still have to bring some products in from the US - VCAS and some fibres, for example.

For heavy-duty mixers, try Construction Equipment Supply in Pickering, ON - they carry Stone products, but again, they cost serious $$$. But they often have used mixers on hand.